A Rant on Fallout New Vegas' Skill Checks (conversation welcome)

TL;DR, the rampant praise that Fallout New Vegas gets for skills checks to me is unjustified since high-level speech checks have such simple reasoning and terminals and lockpicking are hardly any different than very easy ones yet I'd need to invest 50 points to interact with "average ones".

Posting this because I have nowhere else to. Usually I don't feel strongly about any games I play except a few. Ghost of Tsushima, Red Dead Redemption 1, Dying Light, Metro Exodus and recently Fallout New Vegas. The former four have a special place in my heart for multiple reasons each of which are very positive. I enjoy Bethesda's formula in some of their games and specifically so in Skyrim's potential for character builds with mods. I decided that maybe I could give Fallout New Vegas a try given that its general reputation praises the frequency of skill specialization in dialogue and roleplaying ability.

While I do find the concept commendable, this system has me by the fucking throat. I'm still in the early game I believe. Just got to New Vegas and am roleplaying that my character believes he's not ready to face Benny as he doesn't have the disposable caps to get into the Strip. Previously I had gotten Boone to kill Manny because my character is very selfish and will kill almost anyone who's directly/indirectly responsible for what happened. So I frame him and go to speak to Boone to find out I need a fifty-five speech check to convince him of my choice. No problem, speech isn't my character's thing but I'll see what happens since I'm very close to leveling up and I have the magazine perk that gives me twenty more points. So I upgrade my speech to exactly fifty-five and return to him just to say "I deduced it with a simple process of elimination." At first I thought this was a fluke so I reload a save and bite the bullet since it doesn't make sense for my character to have companions anyway. Then I go to New Vegas and work for the Crimson Caravan and do Cass' quest. I check to see what her speech requirement is and all of them are really high level even for one of my main skills. So again I see what the checks are and those along with "average" terminals and locked containers/doors just set me over the edge.

Several of the skill checks I've come across are so high yet their results so simply achieved that I can predict similar phrasing before I even know my choices. I shouldn't need 55 points in speech to tell Boone I used "simple deduction" since Manny and Boone literally don't talk anymore because Manny is glad his wife disappeared. I shouldn't need 55 points to pay Cass 750 caps to sell her caravan nor should I need I 75 to challenge Cass to a drinking contest when it's already very apparent she's a prideful alcoholic. I shouldn't need 50 points to unlock an "average" door and I shouldn't need 65 points to tan golden gecko hides when they're no different from regular geckos. The frequency of these high barriers of entry is making it hard for me to play this game consistently. Do I have to min-max my characters that hard? I generally keep my primary skills 15 points above other ones and it's hardly paying off. So much time playing only to be stonewalled and felt like I have to start over since I feel like I never leveled my character properly. I'd appreciate an answer to my question though. Do I really need to min-max that hard to make my skills profitable in dialogue throughout the rest of the game?

I never even really noticed the skill checks in new vegas, it is a good game because of everything else, not just the skill checks. They are just there to give progression if anything.

The only bad part about the skill checks in new vegas is that for some reason obsidian decided to tell the player exactly how much they need to pass the check which breaks immersion, as for speech it's self I am biased since my current run of the game is a charisma build but i don't see much wrong with it - speech allows you to bypass tedious parts of quests and charm shop keepers into giving you discounts , you can also use it to bypass certain conflicts entirely

IvoryFutaIII said:
speech allows you to bypass tedious parts of quests and charm shop keepers into giving you discounts , you can also use it to bypass certain conflicts entirely

Better to have that system than none at all but that's my bias because I feel a dice roll is more suitable. My idea of the Courier didn't have a backstory that justified prioritizing speech but barter instead. But even barter being one of my main skills is hardly paying off. I didn't expect anybody to read it but this is the gist of my rant.

H0sh said:
I shouldn't need 55 points in speech to tell Boone I used "simple deduction" since Manny and Boone literally don't talk anymore because Manny is glad his wife disappeared. I shouldn't need 55 points to pay Cass 750 caps to sell her caravan nor should I need 75 to challenge Cass to a drinking contest when it's already very apparent she's a prideful alcoholic. I shouldn't need 50 points to unlock an "average" door and I shouldn't need 65 points to tan golden gecko hides when they're no different from regular geckos.

IvoryFutaIII said:

The only bad part about the skill checks in new vegas is that for some reason obsidian decided to tell the player exactly how much they need to pass the check which breaks immersion, as for speech it's self I am biased since my current run of the game is a charisma build but i don't see much wrong with it - speech allows you to bypass tedious parts of quests and charm shop keepers into giving you discounts , you can also use it to bypass certain conflicts entirely

yea, when i played the game i just honestly saw it as a level recommendation, like "oh ill come back here when im a higher level." for the most part. Then again i tended to spec into the things that would require a specific level like hacking and speech

H0sh said:

Better to have that system than none at all but that's my bias because I feel a dice roll is more suitable. My idea of the Courier didn't have a backstory that justified prioritizing speech but barter instead. But even barter being one of my main skills is hardly paying off. I didn't expect anybody to read it but this is the gist of my rant.

having a roll system would literally just make everyone spec into luck builds because it'd be the only way to get certain skill checks.

Also after reading the comment more carefully - it seems you're just mad that NV locks you out of certain routes unless you have certain skill checks ( like barter or speech ) which is like - yeah no shit.
It's something new vegas actually does right over the bethesda titles like F3 & 4 where my dumbass brute could charm the local super model if I kept trying the dialog option long enough and new vegas has skill caps like this to encourage multiple playthroughs , from what it sounds like your current build is just a jack of all trades which means you're a master of none.

I also do agree that some of the dialog isn't the best at times but the boone example you list is just wrong - you could only use " simple deduction " because you'd just randomly picked the old lady , if you broke into her apartment and had a look on her computer you can find some pretty damning evidence which changes the dialogue option.

IvoryFutaIII said:
from what it sounds like your current build is just a jack of all trades which means you're a master of none.

I suppose that means I'm not min-maxing enough then. My point was that some skill checks are unjustifiably high. If something is considered of an "average" difficulty, why can't someone who tags science as a skill at Doc Mitchell's (all tagged skills will probably be in the high 30s) unlock an average terminal? It defies the word average. In the end none of that really matters though. The game was made like thirteen years ago and I don't even know who'd have the authority to give the game patches or updates if that's even possible for consoles.

IvoryFutaIII said:
I also do agree that some of the dialog isn't the best at times but the Boone example you list is just wrong - you could only use " simple deduction " because you'd just randomly picked the old lady , if you broke into her apartment and had a look on her computer you can find some pretty damning evidence which changes the dialogue option.

In this video the poster gets Manny killed and uses the "simple deduction" check to convince Boone. I've done the quest more than once and I know you can find the bill of sale in Jeannie's safe behind the front desk. I just roleplay that my character would want Manny dead since he helped Benny and the Khans and doesn't care about Boone because my character is selfish. The easiest way to kill Manny is to frame him since Boone kills anyone you send in one shot.

H0sh said:

I suppose that means I'm not min-maxing enough then. My point was that some skill checks are unjustifiably high. If something is considered of an "average" difficulty, why can't someone who tags science as a skill at Doc Mitchell's (all tagged skills will probably be in the high 30s) unlock an average terminal? It defies the word average. In the end none of that really matters though. The game was made like thirteen years ago and I don't even know who'd have the authority to give the game patches or updates if that's even possible for consoles.

30 for speech seems reasonable assuming you'd been pumping stats into it since you start out with between 1-10, as for the dialog it's self " simple deduction " is vague enough to imply many meanings ( sarcasm, lying, actual deduction, etc ) - though if i were to guess the skill check is more than likely that high for the level you're expected to encounter the quest at because it skips the quest and you can literally use that reasoning to get him to snipe anyone.
This also just ties into what i said earlier - new vegas isn't really a game when you can be a jack of all trades, it's best to have a build in mind ( Charisma, gunslinger, luck based, etc ) and spec your stats/skills accordingly i wouldn't call that " min-maxing " that's just creating a build - the same is generally true of skyrim in that while you can get by on a jack of all trades build you'll have a much better time if you actually decide what kind of play-style you're going to have before hand.

In this video the poster gets Manny killed and uses the "simple deduction" check to convince Boone. I've done the quest more than once and I know you can find the bill of sale in Jeannie's safe behind the front desk. I just roleplay that my character would want Manny dead since he helped Benny and the Khans and doesn't care about Boone because my character is selfish. The easiest way to kill Manny is to frame him since Boone kills anyone you send in one shot.

Roleplay wise this just makes sense to me, your character is good at bartering but isn't charismatic, just a selfish bandit so it makes sense that he wouldn't have the nessescary charm to believably lie to boone about the killer of his wife